2 Pet 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. So if you think you have a "revelation" from God, but can't back it up with scripture, but can only provide your, or someone else's opinion or position, are we expected to accept this as "gospel" or even valid? 1 Cor 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? This is a bit like the recent exhortations on this list to provide who, what, where and when about events that may or may not be "urban legends". Same concept. Only, we shouldn't be asking who taught it where and when, but who, what and were is it said in the scriptures. Now let me remind you of two other commandments of God- 2 Cor 13:1 ...In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 1 Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and **let the other judge**. These are two commandments that we can't lay aside or we'll be like the Pharisees. And for this reason, I try to go to great care to provide numerous scripture for doctrines and positions that I hold because I am not called or sent to preach myself or my own doctrines, or the doctrines of any other saint or angel no matter what position he holds, or honor he deserves. We are all capable of error. So while some people may feel perfectly content basing their doctrines on their "interpretations" and don't really want to find a conclusion made in scripture, I am of the opposite mind. Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. For example, here, again, is where I provide multiple corroborating scripture rather than pure private interpretation, for why I interpret a certain passage. In this instance, that Jesus did mean water baptism in John 3:5. The scripture says there is- Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, So, according to scripture, there are not "two" baptisms. Jesus said we must be born of water and of Spirit. John further expounded on this fact in 1 John 5 when he talked about *Jesus' baptism* and how that relates to becoming a God-testified Son of God, in contrast to a man-testified Son of God- 1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.... 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in *one*. 9 If we receive the witness of men, **the witness of God is greater**: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life To paraphrase, blood water and Spirit are the whole witness of God and therefore they are said to "agree in one". If we do not have this whole witness of God, but merely that of some man (like telling someone "you are saved", or even if we ourselves claim that we are "born-again" apart from these signs) then not only do we have only the witness of man, but also, we make God a liar because God made it necessary that these elements- water, blood and Spirit be necessary to testify of His Son. If we say then that these three elements aren't necessary witnesses, then we are insulting God's sovereignty, and thereby calling God a liar (as if these three weren't necessary). The record of water (water baptism), blood (repentance) and the Holy Ghost are the same elements by which God gave witness of His Son, therefore that He also gives "in" us, so that we may KNOW (rather than merely guess, suppose, hope or presume) that we have been given eternal life. Without testimony from God by these three elements, we aren't displaying faith, we are (dis)playing make-believe. It doesn't say that "believing" alone is the witness we are born of God, because devils believe and tremble, and many shall say unto me Lord, Lord whom Jesus will confess He never knew them (Matt 7). Rather, these three- blood, water and Spirit testify that we are believers, whereas the lack of these is actually evidence of a lack of belief, because lack of these testifies of lack of belief in the essentiality of the testimony God gave of His Son. The witness of these three in us testifies that God has given us eternal life. Since 1 John 5:6-11 is talking about Jesus' baptism of water and Spirit, and the Bible says there is one baptism (Eph 4:5), then the conclusion I get from tying these together is that water and Spirit baptism, along with repentance, equates in totality to that one baptism, which is the exact same thing as that which Jesus called being born again of water and Spirit. Which is the same message Peter preached in Acts 2:38. When Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in a type of water and spirit baptism. When He was water baptized He said- Mat 3:15 ...thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness... Keeping these in mind, let's look at this next angle. When Jesus said "ye must be born again" we must remember that the first time we were born (naturally) we were born of "blood, water and spirit" also. There is blood that is life in man- Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof... And... Job 32:8 ...there is a spirit in man: Zec 12:1 ...the LORD... formeth the spirit of man within him. Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. So, when Jesus said we must be born again, He was not talking from some randomly chosen event by which to make a partial analogy. Rather, the fact is that even the entire natural birth process was created, not randomly, but in order that He may explain the spiritual birth process and we might understand it- Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: When we were born the first time in the natural, we were born of blood, water and spirit. Therefore, when we are born again, if we are to be born again completely, then we will have to be born AGAIN of all three- blood, water and spirit. Otherwise being born-again simply would not be a complete nor correct analogy. Where I believe some folks get confused is in assuming that being born-again equates to the natural moment of conception. But Jesus didn't say you must be "conceived again" He said you must be "born again". Even though it stands to reason we must be conceived again in order to be born-again, that isn't the commandment as Jesus phrased it in John 3. This perfectly fits the analogy because which of us were totally responsible for being conceived naturally? It is the same way in the spirit. We need to have the seed broadcast, and germinate before we can be born again. Scripturally I see believing as the point of spiritual conception, not the point of re-birth! Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow... 4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up... 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel So the progression is- The word is preached (the seed is broadcast) The word is heard and believed (spiritual conception) The believer receives the Spirit (the believer is born-again- of blood/repentance, water/baptism, and Spirit) This is why it takes our parents- Jesus and His church to broadcast the seed. Isa 66:8 ...for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. But once we hear the word, it takes us, a type of ovum at this point, to receive the seed, which is hearing and repenting and being the "good ground." This also helps explain why water baptism is performed by a member of the church upon a convert (and they can't just go off and baptize themselves), because a) the bag of waters is part of the woman and the whole birth process not just part of the newborn, and b) since baptism is also a type of burial, a dead person does not bury himself. And of course it is God that breathes the spirit of life in either case, so that's why even though the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a promise and a commandment, it is meant that we are commanded to yield to God to receive the promise, rather than for us to reach out and take the promise by our own will as we do with repentance and water baptism. For we are... John 1:13 ...born, not of (natural) blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. So, the question then arises how does being born of the water also equate to burial into Jesus Christ? 1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Now, if you would care to provide scripture, rather than private interpretation to contradict this, I would be interested in seeing those scriptures. Until then, I for one will retain to these scriptures for exhortation on John 3:5. God bless, Bro. Tom __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! 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